permission pending from Kreina Haviv

Scrum (in lieu of our usual questions/responses)

The following is a transcript of 10 minutes of our evening together, where we discussed the following question:

When we feel desolate and empty what convinces us that out trials will end in blessings worthy of such exuberant praise?” What do we do with the paradox of our grief and hope for comfort?

Arthur: I came across a quote today by CS Lewis that might apply. He said, “The pain I feel now, is the happiness I had before. That’s the deal.” I think it means that you can’t have the pain if you didn’t have the happiness before. It relates also to another quote I love, “Grief is the price you pay for love.” 

Paul: I like the way you put it, that you need the happiness before the pain. That’s exactly Lewis, because he believed, like any Christian or Platonist, that we come from a place of joyful bliss before we come into this world, and the thing that is always impelling us to overcome our suffering is to look back and try to return to that original bliss which is the idea of original blessing. The thing that prepares us to go into suffering is joy. It’s a real different way to enter your suffering. If you’re forced, you don’t get this, but if you’ve chosen to go into your pain with joy (not just through gritting your teeth but through experiencing original blessing), then you’ll make it through to the next time. 

Bev: And what you said is interesting that we don’t usually choose our trials. So the question becomes, what are we establishing through practice and community life that will carry us through those hard times? There’s things we put in our minds, or what we feed on, or how we relate to each other, that builds strong tent pegs.

Eldon: I think of it from the other end. When we fall into history, and we experience pain and grief, but we anticipate that pain is not for naught. We participate in the life of Christ when we experience the pain in the present, but we also anticipate that God takes it up in the future, which is hope. So it’s an orientation in the other direction. 

Penny: The only thing that’s helpful for me when I’m in that place is the sense of being accompanied. I’m not accompanied by someone in a joyful place, but rather with someone who’s in that sorrow with me. That’s what creates the joy and the hope. It also takes away the feeling of shame. Sometimes when I’ve been in that desolate place, I have a sense of shame for being there. And yet, if I know Christ is there, it alleviates that shame because he’s been there. He’s not cheerleading me on, but is willing to be there too.

Lyle: I think original blessing shows up in those moments of joy of just being alive. Waking up to a new day, and seeing the sun. You might have a life of suffering, but there’s moments of contentment that you are alive. And that might be God being present to you.

Paul: And that contentment has something to do with the gift of life. You’ve originally been given a gift of life but then thrust into absolute sorrow. But the intention of God has always been that you would have flourishing. If there’s any way you can get in touch with that original intention of God, then you can go from original blessing to crucifixion. What Eldon is saying is equally true, and that brings up the polarity. There’s the two positions and the answer is the tension in between them. We live both of these experiences. You know, sometimes we start to think, “I wasn’t intended for this! I wonder what the original intention of God was for my life?”

Lyle: Paul, earlier you said something about that you are “weird”. Well, I listened to a CBC radio Ideas podcast about the 9th century Anglo-Saxon poem “The Wanderers” (which I’d never heard about before), and they used the word “weird” in its original form which means a mixture of both good and bad in your life experience. And that’s what we’re talking about! Life is weird!

Verda: And centering prayer is a way to practice what people are saying. If we have a sense of giving our suffering up to God, and that below lies something we can trust that is beyond what we’re experiencing. Slowly, over a long time, we can sense God’s presence. 

Bev: Yes. The Spirit is forming our faith memories.

Paul: Those are great ideas.

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